Erica, I have to have an entire post to talk about your last comment. You stated that the woman may have had a point about SAHMs not going to college because it is a waste of time, money, and space, right? Well, here is why I believe you are wrong.
When I was in college, I was actually confronted by a girl who found out my "big" plans in life were to be a mom. She said, "You just want to stay home? Why are you here wasting my time then?"
My response? "I'm not wasting YOUR time. I'm here for an education." I didn't say anything else to her because I knew it would be fruitless. I can, however, elaborate to you.
Just because a woman plans on staying home to raise her kids does NOT mean that it will happen. At the time of this incident, I didn't have any kids, and I wasn't pregnant. You may remember I had a very hard time getting pregnant with Aiden, and I went through times where I had to wonder if we even would have children. My body is just not "normal" when it comes to reproduction. So... should I have just sat at home, waiting to get pregnant? Or try to enrich my life?
Also, I remember Mom having to go back to school to get her degree because she was divorced with three little kids to support. Before she and my dad divorced, she was a SAHM. But things happen. Mom mentioned in her comment divorce, injury, and death. You never know what life it going to throw at you, so you should be prepared. That means getting your college education and getting your degree.
Lastly, just because I stay at home, does that mean I should be ingnorant? NO! I chose to go to college to get and EDUCATION. I enjoyed college very much... as much for what went on in the classroom as for all the fun/crazy things I did with my friends and roommates. In the Church we are encouraged to get an education, and to always keep learning. SAHMS use their educations everyday. No, we're not sitting in corporate meetings or whatever, but we are (usually!) smart women who have a lot to contribute to society. I refuse to be labeled as "barefoot and pregnant" because that implies ignorance and stupidity. I don't believe I am either ignorant or stupid.
It is not a waste of time because I use my education, even if I'm not getting paid for it. It is not a waste of space because most women work at some point anyway, and they need to learn the same things as women who never plan on staying home. It's not a waste of money because if you get an education, I believe it's always worth it.
As far as our Mormon culture... yes, we all expect to get married and have kids. Yes, there is a lot of married student housing at BYU and the like. No, not every college or university has married student housing. So what? Yes, we get married young in our culture, but who's to say that's completely wrong? If it is right for you to get married at 21, then it's right for you. If it's right for you to get married at 35, then it's right for you. You have to make the best decisions for YOU. That includes marriage, children, and work. Just because you and your friends at BU don't know of any undergrads that are married doesn't mean they don't exist. They do. Young marrieds tend to hang out with other young marrieds, anyway. (Singles and marrieds tend to find they don't share the same interests a lot of the time.... but that's another post for another time).
Oh, and just because I'm a SAHM right now doesn't mean I'm not going back to work later. You know that I am a teacher by trade. I loved teaching. A lot. But I just think that being at home with my kids right now is more important for me. When they are older, I totally plan on teaching again... not because I have to, but because I WANT to.
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26 comments:
I could dissect your complete post, but it's midterm week and I don't have the time. Perhaps I'll come back on Saturday. For now, I shall only have this:
"SAHMS use their educations everyday. No, we're not sitting in corporate meetings or whatever, but we are (usually!) smart women who have a lot to contribute to society."
1. How do you use your education? I mean, RIGHT NOW, today, how did you use it?
[smart teachers like mom are exempt from this question]
2. Concerning those who have a lot to contribute to society...what exactly is it they have to contribute? Offspring?
[by the way, please don't flip out at me. I really am trying to see it from your point and I can't at all. I just want to have a rational discussion.]
You say it sista! (I'm Laural's SIL -- I am not stalking you... ok, maybe I am). But I once had a friend give a talk that really, raising children (although it does currently seem like an eternity) is only going to a part of my life. I hope that my education will help my "empty nest" not to feel quite so "empty".
K, just read erica's comment. She is obviously clueles... and once you have a kid in school the need for an education increases enormously. Ignore her, that's my advice. :)
Okay then, you use it (though I might mention, the basic levels of bio and geology you are using are middle or high school levels). That's great you're writing a book! Honestly.
goofyj has now answered honestly and completely without using immature comments and staying rational. That's all I'm asking for!
Hilary, I find it ironic you spelled "clueless" wrong and will probably never listen to your opinion because the first thing you said about me was a person attack. That's uncalled for. I have so many smart-aleck comments I could make here (if you doubt it, ask "sariah" "allrie" or "lura" about typical real-life comments I make) but choose not to only to prove a certain level of maturity.
Now, I must get back to studying and not procrastinating, since I do plan on being a professional my entire life...
You go Sariah...a very eloquent post...wow I am shocked by the utter ignorance of people (ok actually I am not...that phenomena has always and will always drive me insane).
K.
Okay, Erica! Stop fighting with people! This is going nowhere.
First of all, I know who Hillary is, so Erica, don't be rude. I know that this girl has a good education and used it for many years before having children, and will continue to use it. As far as her misspelling... you're one to talk! No one is perfect, and you often misspell. Who cares? I don't.
Second of all, just because Julia was the only one to intelligently answer your questions does not mean that it doesn't go for the rest of us.
Don't be rude to Julia, either. She may be using "middle school" level geoplogy and biology, but so what? She has YOUNG kids, so she's not exactly going to be teaching them university level anything for a while. Also, most of what we use on a daily basis isn't university level of education. It's more basic than that. Even when you are a professional someday, you will find that you aren't using much more than your so-called "middle school" geology.
All in all, I have to say that I'm completely angry at you Erica for being rude to my friends. You may not agree with us, and that's fine. You may not understand us, and that's fine. But you have NO reason to be rude and disrespectful to any of us for the decisions we make or the opinions we give.
YOU GO GIRL!!!
This post was so empowering to me; it was just what I needed to hear. I studied for the big fancy degree at the big fancy university. While I am not yet ready for motherhood, I am quitting my big fancy job at the big fancy business to work closer to home so that I can better my family life and prepare for the future.
I am so glad that I have my education. It's a good "just in case", because you never know. I'm also glad that having my degree will be a great example and motivation to my future children. My eduation will also influence the educational experiences of my children -- as demonstrated in other's comments.
My time spent and my eduaction earned are invaluable to me. It was my time, and to me, it was time well spent.
hehehe... You know, I also find it funny thay the lesson I taught the Mia Maids on Sunday called 'Homemaking'... The girls were suprised that is was more than doing dishes, sweeping and making the beds. Wouldn't they be suprised to see "Mommy Wars" in it's entrity. This is what awaits our young women and I hope we teach them well.
Thank you for this post and the subsequent comments.
~ p&a a.k.a. audioproductiongrl
I wasn't being rude. But, I should have figured you'd take it the wrong way, you usually do. Whatever. I'll be sure not to congratulate your friends on bookwriting again. Or how about I ban myself from your blog? You'd probably be happy then.
[goofj, by the way, I have a friend that helps run a regional publishing business. it's in new england, which I know isn't where you live, but I'm sure he can give some good recommendations where to turn when it comes to publish time. let me know if you're interested. and I hope you didn't take any offense to anything I said. I honestly didn't mean it.]
Hm. I think being a SAHM at this day and age is a lot braver than it was years ago. It's more difficult and people attach a certain stigma to it.
It's a choice. A feminist would understand if he or she really were a feminist. The breakthroughs we've made are all to do with giving choice to women. You don't HAVE to stay at home anymore, but you can if you WANT to.
As for getting an education... that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard. Why would staying at home mean that anything you do to enrich your mind and your life is useless? On the contrary! Acquiring an education is an essential life skill. Even if all you do for the rest of your life is raise babies, think about it for a second. These children will be around their mother most of their life. Their mother will be their primary educator. Would you rather have that be someone educated or ignorant?
I'm not even talking about women who may be able to teach their children complex mathematics. I'm talking about educated women raising open minded socially aware people. It is a fact that people who go to university are exposed to more kinds of people and schools of thought than those who aren't. It isn't that you don't have a chance at being open minded when you don't go to university, far from it; life experience is what teaches. But going to university, having that experience... that is one of the most invaluable tools you can acquire as a person.
And it is the one thing you will always have. No one can ever rob you of your education. Ever.
Julia, I'm glad you weren't offended by Erica's comments. That's good. Here is the reason I find what she said as rude: while complimenting you she then (in the same breath!) degraded what you are teaching your kids by saying it is only middle school or high school level.
Erica, if you "knew" I would take your comments the wrong way, then you need to learn to say things the right way. You LOVE to get my goat, I know that. If you don't want me to take offense at what you say, don't be offensive. You purposefully say things to bug me. If you want to have a "rational" discussion, I'm all for it, but not if you are just going to argue with me and try to make me feel stupid and if you are going to belittle me for my choices.
Kris -- thank you! Yes, I would have to say that MOST SAHMS are not LDS. MOST young marrieds are not even LDS.
Therese -- Thank you for the affirmation. I really appreciate that.
Actually, everyone -- I really do enjoy hearing all of your opinions on this. I didn't start any of this to be an argument, just to state that I think it's ridiculous for other people to think of SAHMs as do-nothings, know-nothings that are just wasting space in this world.
That's right Sariah, go ahead and convince others to be offended when they aren't. That'll help the world go round.
Anyways, Julia I'm assuming your name is, I'm sending an email with details. Hope it helps!
erica, I'm not cinvincing anyone of anything. I'm saying why I found what you said as rude!
Erica, you said "I wasn't being rude. But, I should have figured you'd take it the wrong way, you usually do." Here's a hint: if you know someone is going to take what you're trying to say the wrong way, then maybe you should use that oh, so spectacular education you pride yourself on and rephrase what you're saying so that you can get whatever point it is you're trying to make across is such a way that it won't be misunderstood.
And by the way, thanks for thinking that I'm wasting my time being in school. It's such a nice feeling knowing that one's little sister thinks that of you. And I think that you need to not make value judgements about things that you don't understand. Because let's face it, you don't understand. If that makes you mad, then I don't care because I'm tired of trying to explain and justify and defend decisions to you.
Sariah, I'm glad you wrote this post. The comments you've made and the comments others have made have helped define what I think most SAHMs feel, and very elequently too. So, thank you.
Cool, now both my sisters are mad at me. Ah well. This would make for a killer culture project for anthro.
To my daughters: STOP BICKERING. RIGHT NOW!!!
I'm finished yelling.
Erica, you have a valid point of view. It is different from mine and obviously from those who have weighed in on the topic here. But those whose viewpoint is diametrically (undoubtedly misspelled) opposite yours have a valid point of view as well.
Sariah and Lura are on the defensive because Erica is their younger sister. I understand as I have often felt the same with my younger sister on the same type of discussion.
It has, throughout time, been a desired privilage to be a SAHM. It has been traditionally only the very wealthy who could. It was just more noticable once society was industrialized. Always, however, Moms have lots of work to do. Julia, you were most eloquent in your explanation. (I think that says you write well.Good thing for an author.) Julia probably puts many of us to shame with all she does, but most of us SAHM's or otherwise do try to use what talents and gifts we have for the betterment of our families and of the society in which we live.
So let the discussion continue... but let's all keep it civil. Let's follow Julia's example and not take offense, and Lura's suggestion to rephrase if we think something we're saying might offend.
Women who make the choice not to have children or not to marry for a career are allowed by society to be affirmed in that choice. Moms are usually encouraged to be at home when their children are small, but more often encouraged to return to the workplace once their children reach school age. Think about it, Erica, if I were still working the last four years...you would not yet be in college, you would instead be adjusting to a new high school in your senior year. I've been in and out of the work force as best suited our family's needs. I believe I have the right and the responsibility to make that choice. Likewise, so does everyone else. No one can or should make that choice for another.
Oh wow...that is so very cool that your mom reads your blog!!!...could your mom call my mom and tell mine to read my blog too???!!...seriously now, listen to your mother! LOL...stop bickering. HEhe. HUGZ.
K.
Kris, I'd be happy to call your mom--my daughters read my blog, too. I apppreciate the "neutral" forum for discussion, and yes, fights. It's out in the open, but does not have to be personal--so long as people refuse to take anything personally, and so long as people refrain from rudeness.
I could "ditto" many of you, as I am also an educated stay at home mother. My decision to stay at home when I had children was solidified after teaching public school because there was a difference in my students whose educated mothers stayed home. (Can you still be a good mother without an education? Yes. That's another point altogether.)
My mother is also an educated stay at home mother. Yes there are some days that both of us succomb to the braindrain because we haven't really used our formal education that day (but I had days like that before motherhood, too.) When things get tough and people get critical it's nice to know that it was a choice, and that we aren't staying home because we had no other options.
The religion comment is a moot point. I have more friends who have chosen to stay home with their children who are not LDS, than friends who are. Many of them are not formally part of any organized religion. They are attorneys, speech pathologists, actresses, and educators. They have chosen to leave that and devote themselves to raising contributing members of society. They creatively find ways to nourish their children's minds and to utilize their own experiences. They use their knowledge of the world, or people, of patterns to understand their own children and help their children grow. They also use their experiences to identify potential problems (developmental, social, behavioural, and others) and get early intervention.
Just as in every other aspect of parenthood (except abuse) there is no good/bad decision and no one thing makes you a good/bad parent. But there will always be someone to tell you/me/everyone that our particular decision was a poor one; I think that's why this post became so volitile -- we're all so sensitive about trying to do our best to be our best. No one likes being told that they are wrong.
But right and wrong for any family is between spouses and God. It is up to each of us as individuals to educate ourselves as best we can, determine what we think would be the best course, and pray for confirmation.
Wow, I feel like I have totally been out of the loop for a while! Great comments everyone!
As for me, also a SAHM, somedays I don't feel like I use my education at all, others, I use it constantly. I also use my education outside of my home, mostly in my church calling, but also in even the play group I got to with my son.
Just because we are SAHMs doesn't mean that we never leave our house!
I am grateful for my education because of what I learned in my classes, but most for what I learned about myself, society, and so many other things. Also, I met some of very best friends, (Sariah) who even though we live 2000 miles apart uplift me when I am down, share their joys and sorrows with me, and just make my life better!
This is going to sounds corny, probably especially to Erica, but it is true. If I had not gone to college and even studied the courses that I did, I would not have met my husband and found the great life that I now have. And our meeting wasn't the stereotyped fairytale meeting/wedding. We went through a lot of challenges to be where we are!
When it comes right down to it, I know that all of us, including Erica, can count the numberless ways that some SAHM or another has effected our life for the better. For me, I know it is where Heavenly Father wants me and that's all that matters!
NO WAY! Your MOM has a blog...I love your mom.
Very cool in the most mom sort of way...
K.
Erica your right I don't use my education everyday. That is because I worked in a Environmental Laboritory. A lot of what I did hasn't any direct application to raising my children (except recyling but I'd probably do that anyway) but when I was working in the environmental lab I wasn't using my education every day either. I spent a lot of time on the phone with clients who were wondering where their results were or quoting prices or finding samples that the techs lost or even photo copying. But I had it just in case they had a question. Just like now I have my chem and bio background and will be able to help my kids when they are studying those subjects and I will be able to give them praticle applications for those subjects.
I love that you have an opinion and although I may not agree with you, because I am at a different stage of life than you are, someday your mind might be changed or it may never but that is our perogative as women. Right?
Something I have learned after having kids is that I no longer want to do anything in the field I was in. I have noticed that my intrests have changed to nutrition and food chemistry and although I can not afford to return to school right now to pursue that line of work, I like the idea that I can for if I knew that I was unable to better myself because I was a SAHM I seriously think I would shrivel up and die. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
After having just had an extremely long telephone conversation with Erica on this whole discussion I now understand much better than I did previously about her viewpoint and how she got to it. She and I do not agree on all principals, but as we dissected it all, we found we had more agreement than not.
In her defense, I have to state that we were in a rather atypical Ward in VA. It was made up of either very wealthy families or dental students who were living on a] future wealth or b] family (inherited) wealth while in school. We were in the small section that did not fit the rest of the ward. In YW she had lesson upon lesson where they were taught about looking toward marriage. Good, they should, but it was not always handled well. A woman I admire greatly and am fairly close friends with was in YW, but asked to be released because she disagreed with how life was presented to the YW. She works out of her home currently as an engineer. The other really good teacher Erica had moved away. Altho. she was the wife of the bishop, and they were also quite well to do, she worked out of her home as an interior designer.
Mostly, however, the girls were being taught that they should go to college to find a husband. It is unfortunate that that is the attitude. Finding a husband is a great perk for many...but it is not the reason to go to college. (Hence Erica's feeling that girls like that are just taking up places other could benefit from more.) Erica admits that there are a great many "exceptions": women who are SAHM's who use their educations on a daily basis. She and I both agreed that we need to read the book if we are going to continue the discussion, because having this disc. based on a book we haven't read is kinda silly. I am going to read the book, then I'll write my own blog on it rather than using Sariah's space. (Yay!)
Sariah, keep up the thought provoking blogs, but don't let your sister provoke you toooo much. And Erica, don't let your sister provoke you too much either. If you two would talk as calmly as you & I just did...you would get along just fine. And Lura, Erica did not mean to insult you. You are in a different catagory as you will be able to carry on your career from home too.
so, i'm way late as usual... but i want to be a part of controversy, dagnabbit!
my question is... why are people so silly? i'm "trained", educated to do a specific type of work- but just because i am doesn't mean i don't have interests in other areas that i might never fully use, or need on a daily basis.
what does it matter if a stay at home mom has furthered her education or not?
let's turn the tables. if stay at home mothers are wasting time getting educations, are women who work wasting time having children?
heh.
i work at home, and don't have children. once again, i win. :P
HAHAHA
nanner, nanner
and uh, yay?
oh, and i'm not "college educated" either, so i'm breaking all kinds of mad crazy rules!
THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!
heh.
FF--I love you. Can I adopt you?
You too, Kris (all that flattery WILL get you somewhere).
A very controversial subject--for generations. But if we read through all these posts, there is little controversy--most of us are happy to have a vehicle to voice our opinions. Poor Erica, voiced a different opinion than the rest. With a couple exceptions (OK--3: Sariah, calling you to task for being rude; Lura, for hurting her feelings; and me, for the three of you argueing) no one is really trying to yell at you, or even to convince you that you are wrong. We all seem to agree that everyone: working, mother non-working, single, non-mother, married, or whatEVER should be allowed to make her own choice.
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